A few weeks ago, while discussing the Truman Doctrine, there was some discussion in the comments regarding whether Russia was truly an adversary and/or whether we shared some commonality or values with Putin’s current kleptocracy. I reminded of that when I saw this.
Giving Iran a big hug as Israel checks its options in response to a missile attack from Iran, a year after an Iran-backed terror attack from Hamas, ought, in the mind of any rational American who is grounded to facts and reality, put to rest the notion that the gift of appeasement to, or an alignment with, Russia would represent our national values. The facts are that Iran is not only the world’s leading state sponsor of terror, specifically of the Islamic revolutionary flavor, it is a major supplier of weaponry to Russia, in addition to its support of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. As is North Korea. And China.
Therefore, every commitment made by the West to Ukraine is being offset by an axis of our nation’s adversaries who do not want Western nations and values to be victorious in Eastern Europe. Equally true is the fact that any and every inch of Ukrainian territory allowed to be permanently annexed by Russia is a victory for nations whose values include taking territory by brute force. It is also a test of whose values will endure: those whose values permit seeing humans as mere pawns in service of an ideology or despot, or those whose values conceive of humans as having been gifted certain inalienable rights, among them being living a life that is not in service to an ideology or despot.
While sitting on the sidelines pounding one’s pud may seem an attractive option to some, the fact of the matter is that one vision of world order will succeed and one will fail, and the two are as incompatible as oil and water.
And we probably ought to look askance at things like this and this and this.
And if you see pro-Putin, anti-Ukrainian information on the internets, there is a reason for that.
Discuss.
What’s to discuss? Supporting Russia and Iran is indefensible if you support democracy.
Problem is both parties today appear to be doing just that in different ways. Same goes for our allies. Feels like the 1930’s all over again in many ways. Our kids are likely to have to learn some very hard lessons if we adults don’t get back to common sense.
Hmm. What different ways? Mostly what I see is talk embracing Putin, but so far only from one side. I am willing to be educated, though.
Both sides?? Where are you getting that?
Has anyone said:
“Iran, find and release my opponents tax returns (or any other negative info) and you’ll be richly rewarded!”
I must’ve missed such an invitation.
“Bothsiderism” is generally a very lazy take. They may both lie and they both may have corrupt members among them, but some things are pretty clearly falling on one side of the ledger.
Sadly, the former KGB agent’s active measures and ideological subversion have turned far too many folks around here into 21st century Jane Fonda’s.
The problem is we had an opportunity from around 1989 – 2010 to be in a much better place with Russia and our leaders were either corrupt or stupid. I do not know if any of you watched Tucker Carlson’s interview with Putin but the history Putin quoted at least the parts in the 60’s through the present day that I am familiar with was accurate. Our government lied to them repeatedly and now after the absolutely stupid things the Biden administration did they are understandably looking for new partners. In addition those stupid things the Biden administration did have caused even a few of our friendly trading partners not to trust us. This will ultimately lead to the rapid weakening of the dollar no matter who is elected in November. This will in turn lead to even more severe inflation than this country has ever experienced. Think Greece a little over a decade ago only worse if you want to get the picture.
Russia was never an ally and our leaders were wise not to trust them.
That was my point. They could have been, an ally or the very worst neutral. Our leaders were stupid or more likely corrupt which is why they are not.
It was never happening, Russia had not intention of it. If anything our leaders were overly trusting. It is amazing how neocons are getting suckered into these hippy flower child what ifs.
If you think I am a neocon or a hippy flower child then either you misread what I said or I did not say it well. But if you read my comment to Derek at 11:20 you will maybe get a clearer picture what I know and think.
I did, I think you are and don’t realize it.
Trusting Putin’s version of anything is a very risky proposition. We kicked their asses and made them collapse and he has a sore ass about it? Sorry Vlad.
We won, they lost. Now he wants to put the team back together and at our expense. All we have ever wanted is for the former Soviet states to have the free choice to become western-style democracies, including Russia.
He has chosen a different path that enriches himself, crushes dissent and interferes with democratic choices all over the world, especially those bordering states that he sees as a buffers like Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, etc….
“Trusting Putin’s version of anything is a very risky proposition”. I didn’t trust his version. It is just that his version is what I saw happen.
They did lose that is correct. But instead of taking our victory and turning our enemy into someone that was at least not our enemy as we did with Japan after WWII. We did the opposite. We did not do anything that we could have done to help make that happen. The only thing we did do was try to help secure some of their nukes. But because of our absolutely stupid policies we didn’t even do that well and a good many went missing.
Had we worked with Yeltsin we could have taken our victory and parlayed it into a strong trading relationship that at the very least was not militarily adversarial. Now we have taken our Victory and put us right back where we were only worse. They used to think we weren’t trustworthy. Now we proved to them that we are not trust- worthy. Whoever leads us going forward has a much more difficult path if they even want to try to clean up the mess our leaders have made.
It wasn’t a victory, it was a reorg bankruptcy. The exchaanged Communism for Fascism which are both perversions of Marxism.
The blame America first crowd…
Plenty of former Soviet states have happily come over to our side. More want to. Russia prevents and invades and interferes. Picking off former soviet satellites was a strategy designed to encourage Russia to join them. The idea that what we should have done was to ensure the security of Russian by leaving the Baltic states and Ukraine under the Russian boot heel was not and is not in our national interests.
Appeasing tyrants is not a sound strategy unless the likely replacement tyrant is worse than the current one. See e.g., Egypt, Saudi Arabia. Not sure popular elections there are working out well for the home team.
With Russia there is every reason to believe that an open and free society would lead to a stable western style democracy. And that would put us in the enviable position of isolating China and Iran and North Korea. Which is far superior to propping up or ignoring Russian aggression abroad and its tyranny within.
I am certainly not in the blame America first crowd.
“The idea that what we should have done was to ensure the security of Russian by leaving the Baltic states and Ukraine under the Russian boot heel was not and is not in our national interests.”
No one suggested that. The fact is at that time they were in no position to provide security for themselves much less anyone else. That is why it was such a golden but squandered opportunity.
“Appeasing tyrants is not a sound strategy”
That’s just it Yeltsin was no tyrant. He was an alcoholic but no tyrant. He was the one that stood up to Gorbachev when he (Gorbachev) caved to the hardliners and went back on some of his reforms. Because of this when the hardliners exiled Gorbachev he (Yeltsin) was able to rally the masses and force the hard liners to back down. In days the Soviet hardliners dream to cobble the old Union back together crumbled.
“With Russia there is every reason to believe that an open and free society would lead to a stable western style democracy. And that would put us in the enviable position of isolating China and Iran and North Korea.”
Exactly, and our stupid leaders during that time and this time completely blew that opportunity!
I think you need to upgrade your research, specifically on Yeltsin circa 1993 re: rebellion and his own constitutional reforms in response that made him effectively a despot and laid the groundwork for Putin. The fact of the matter is that it isn’t up to us to create freedom and democracy within a foreign nation. The people who believed that Jeffersonian democracy would flower around Saddam’s corpse sold that bullshit. The people have to want that and fight for that and some places are just not ready for it.
Moreover, the harder you force the issue the more counterproductive it is. Given the decades of hostility and misinformation, the prospect of a Russian politician selling: lets be like America, was not likely.
I think we did the best we could to protect our own interests at the close of the cold war.
If you want to cast blame about our position since the soviet collapse, cast it on the administration that spent exactly 0 seconds on Al Qaeda from 1/20/01-9/11/01 and them sold us on a really stupid idea based on lies. We went from budget surpluses to really stupid annual debts and printing money. When that bubble pops is anyone’s guess.
Not only did that stupidity cost us treasure and worry about what we can afford to protect our national interestes, its undermined our government’s credibility with vast swaths of the American people to the point millions are more inclined to believe a former kgb agent over their own government.
“I think you need to upgrade your research, specifically on Yeltsin circa 1993 re: rebellion and his own constitutional reforms in response that made him effectively a despot and laid the groundwork for Putin. The fact of the matter is that it isn’t up to us to create freedom and democracy within a foreign nation. The people who believed that Jeffersonian democracy would flower around Saddam’s corpse sold that bullshit. The people have to want that and fight for that and some places are just not ready for it.”
Yeltsin was forced to do what he did because he had no money and the natives were getting restless. This was a perfect opportunity for our capital and to open their markets to our companies. We simply failed miserably. It is true that people have to want it but they did. I agree on Saddam and our lies but their religion and the way they practice it is what keeps them from obtaining freedom.
“If you want to cast blame about our position since the soviet collapse, cast it on the administration that spent exactly 0 seconds on Al Qaeda from 1/20/01-9/11/01 and them sold us on a really stupid idea based on lies. We went from budget surpluses to really stupid annual debts and printing money. When that bubble pops is anyone’s guess.”
I agree completely on this but they were certainly not the only ones. Every administration between Reagan and it was guilty and so was Obama.
Indonesia is the worlds most populous Muslim majority country. And a republic with elections. Religions of all types have interfered with human freedom in order to maintain their own power, prestige and income. It can be overcome.
There’s murder and then there’s genocide. Two unfunded wars, two unfunded tax cuts an unfunded extension of Medicare, plus the wall street bail out sets that one apart.
I think Russ was very complete and succinct in his response. If you love democracy, you completely mistrust Russia and Iran, and a few others.
Derek, just to go sideways for a moment, how does Iran get paid from Russia for the weapons? The Ruble is worthless, Iran doesn’t need any oil, the Iranians are Muslim, so they don’t need the Vodka, they live in the desert so they don’t need sables or furs. They must be getting good old US greenbacks some way, maybe it’s through DJT stock? :~)
Another diversion. I knew what the definition of the word nihilistic meant before meeting a Russian, but didn’t really know what it meant before engaging with some native Russians. Their life experience is completely different than ours and antithetic to a free democratic society. Maybe it’s just the examples I’ve been exposed to, but I’ve not seen or read anything to the contrary. Attaining the zeitgeist of world domination like the former USSR is their only hope for happiness in this life.
Another diversion, why does Russia want to be thought of as European? Why do they continually threaten the European countries while denying their Asian roots? Why not advance East or South? Could their supposed bond of ethnic purity with the Western nations be encouraging them to be making friends with like minded people in our congress? Congress people that should have been in the U.S.A. on the 4th of July. https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/seven-gop-lawmakers-make-misguided-trip-russia-msna1119676
More diversions, is it monotheism? Does Vlad have a segment of our population believing that we all worship the same God? Are some of our leaders convinced that the “Christians” the world over are united by a higher power and not beholden to territorial boundaries?
Presumably, the deal is some technical assistance with military applications. Could be missile tech or nuclear or both. Who knows?
Russia is logical, they play chess, and they are very insecure. They have a desire to be more of a player than they are. They assume that we have national ADD and that we will let Ukraine go either based upon their deceit or our impatience. What Ukraine has shown is that they are weak. If we keep the pressure up, Vlad is done.
They have wanted to be seen as relevant in European affairs since Peter the Great. As far as Asia, those former Central Asian states are of like mind. Tyrannical dictatorships. The Caucus states have been more trouble for them but they have repressed democratic progress there.
I do think part of the ideological subversion is convincing idiots that this commie atheist is really a devout Christian who is far superior to our own domestic American “leftists” aka, their fellow citizens.
“I do think part of the ideological subversion is convincing idiots that this commie atheist is really a devout Christian who is far superior to our own domestic American “leftists” aka, their fellow citizens.”
Preach on!
“how does Iran get paid from Russia for the weapons” How about technical expertise for their nuclear and missile programs?
Which makes it really awesome, and convenient to Putin, that we unilaterally terminated the inspection and transparency agreement.
That agreement wasn’t worth the paper it was written on. It did nothing for us and they in turn had to really give up nothing an were given dollars. There was no real inspections or transparency. It enabled them to do everything they wanted short of building a weapon and that is basically where we are today. Releasing the cash we absolutely stupid. It has only enabled them to fully fund the terror networks which we are now paying to stop.
Such a great replacement deal! Struck in a day believe me! Trust me! So good! So fast!!! If you mean how quick Iran can have a nuclear armed missile since we left them to their own devices:
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/07/19/politics/blinken-nuclear-weapon-breakout-time
From the people who said we couldn’t trust the international inspection regime in Iraq!
You’re a bunch of gd geniuses. We should so listen to your ilk. Never let us down. Can always trust you all to be completely wrong on literally everything. But there is always that self-assured and confident strut as you fuck up everything, everywhere.
I reckon there are “concepts of plan” for an Iran nuke deal and Mexican bought wall right next to the “concepts of a plan” for an ACA replacement that is just so damn awesome!!
Trust me! Believe me! Everyone says so!!
I am not understanding what you mean here at all. Everything I told you was accurate. What your saying here doesn’t seem relevant.
Since unilaterally abandoning the protocol because we were told that a much better deal would be struck, Iran has accelerated its capacity to have a nuclear capable weapon available and because there in agreement in place, no one is around to check on things. It was estimated to be 6 months while the protocol was in place and now its 7 to 14 days. Hardly a better deal. So Russia could be providing all sorts of knowledge on that front and no one know it.
While an international inspection regime has often been decried as toothless, the absence of any wmd in Iraq shows that inspections can work. Failure to appreciate those regimes and disregarding them has been costly.
This arrogant and nonsensical practice of telling us that typical diplomacy and policy choices are terrible and will be replaced have largely been a giant sack of bullshit. No replacement of the Iran deal was proposed much less adopted. No replacement of the aca was proposed much less adopted. No w money for a wall materialized.
But we are promised more easy answers and “concepts of a plan.” Its a series of “cons” not concepts. It’s all just transparent nonsense but thats doesn’t stop the talking points.
You do realize that the agreement allowed them to get to within 7 to 14 days of a weapon. The agreement did not prevent them from enriching Uranium. It only limited how much they could do over a period of time. With or without the agreement they were less than 9 months away from enough material to make a weapon. The agreement was worthless. It was a political distraction and nothing more. Why do you think the Israelis were more unhappy with an “agreement” than they were before? It is because they know most of the world would buy the lie that they were safer when in fact they were not.
You are wrong. Wear it like a badge of honor if you wish.
We need to quit fucking with these people altogether. I have spent a lot of time in eastern Europe, and the further East you go, the less fucks they give. I think the first time it dawned on me was when I was in Poland and watching a crime reenactment show one night. The story was how a Russian gang kidnapped a wealthy man, held him for ransom and cut off his hand to show they meant it to the family. Poor guy died of blood loss/ trauma chained to a bath tub days later. They showed this gruesome reality during prime time on network TV. Anyway, eastern Ukraine is basically Russian. I don’t want to go to war over that place.
We’re not “going to war.” We’re sending outdated, excess military equipment to a country fighting off an invasion, i.e., killing Russians.
The more they kill, the weaker Putin gets. Eventually he’ll leave or he will be deposed, if we keep the pressure up.
If he wins, he gets stronger.
The Ukrainians have exposed Russia’s military as a paper tiger, while exposing the kleptocracy of the Putin regime. Acting as our surrogates, they have taken our mothballed stuff and allowed our military to upgrade without the loss of American lives while pushing the “world’s 2nd best military” to the brink. The Ukrainians gave up their nukes for an agreement with Russia for their independence and Russia reneged. They need our full support, and I question the motives of any politician that doesn’t agree. As John McCain said, “Russia is a gas station with nukes.”
Oh, hell yes. Everybody loves a good proxy war.
Damn shame the South Vietnamese weren’t as motivated.
Our best opportunity to instigate change in Russia came during the
Gorbachev years. Once he was pushed aside and Putin came to power we lost the necessary access to influence any sort of reform. We should not let Putin take land from Ukraine. He is a despot. Both North Korea and China have publicly identified Putin as their greatest ally. That’s not good company.