Last week we explored what role, if any, the concept of a “Creator”, however defined, may play in identifying, securing and/or defending, by rhetoric or action, the notion that there are certain things in which all people should expect to be free of interference from governmental authority. This week’s topic is the degree to which the church ought to be free of political/civic/governmental concerns:
Discuss.
Take away their amnesty from tax and let them say and do what they like.
And if the profits reaped from that “speech” morphs over time into a political strategy which includes financing a move towards a theocratic state? An ayatollah of the western hemisphere perhaps? I think the video presents a cautionary tale, at least in part. History presents a fuller story thats makes it apparent that a mix of religion in government is potentially quite perilous. Who knows, there might even be some conflagration of that problem somewhere in the world right now?
While I thought we were going to take up the deepest most salient topics of modern religion, like full immersion and transubstantiation, you went another way. Please allow me to offer a different take: http://tackytoo.com/the-900-foot-jesus/
Nope. I just thought we would look at the notion of so-called “Christian Nationalism.” Perhaps, I should have been clearer. I’m always trying decide whether I need to make a full introduction and/or state a position (and get all the “tl;dr” complainant) or whether I can just let it happen organically and risk the thread deviating from the intended path.
Do you say the same thing about any other NFP/501c3 who advocates for political causes they believe in?
Yes sir I do. I’m not dogging the church by any means. I grew up in a small Baptist church in Harris County. My wife grew up Episcopal in Atlanta so we joined the Methodist Church as sort of a compromise. I just don’t see why the tax exempt status is necessary. Same as pro sports, the anti trust they enjoy is a joke,
So, where’s the line? Repeal 501c3 and not allow charitable contributions to be deductible for all and force NFP to hire tax accountants to help them comply? If you want your tax status and, therefore, deductibility for contributors, you forfeit your right to advocate politically for the positions you believe in?
Will unions and community organizations be subject to the same requirements or is this just for religious organizations?
Genuinely curious about this.
I honestly do not think any organization, religious or other, should be tax exempt. I do not care what they do with the money they receive from donors. I have to figure out how to pay for everything I buy with money that is taxed and taxed and taxed.
Are you willing to give up your tax deductibility to support the causes of your choice?
Do religious organizations have the right to advocate for positions that are in accordance with their values? Absolutely, just as any tax-exempt organization can advocate for policies. I don’t want my pastor telling me who to vote for. I wouldn’t want my employer telling me who I should vote for. That’s not that person’s role, and frankly, it would turn me off.
Is citizen one of the roles where I have a responsibility to live out my faith in civilized society? Absolutely.
By the way, I didn’t listen to this guy’s sermon, so I have no idea what he’s advocating for. I’m more in line with this guy – disagreement is ok … division is not:
In that forum, among elected politicians, spot on. Most leaders who have come from outside of government have tended to be quite divisive. Personally, I can tolerate the name calling and the fear-mongering and the thinking that being in power is worth doing some unfortunate things. What I can’t stand is someone who doesn’t care about facts or evidence and who will lie and obfuscate to try to win an argument. I don’t care what you stand for or what you believe, you ought to care enough about the subject matter to incorporate the truth and if your position can’t persist in its light, change.
State legislatures are generally made up of citizen-legislators. They have to go back and earn a living among the people they represent. There are very few “career” politicians.
Congress? Not so much.
Not terribly practical these days. I’ve heard proposals about expanding the number of house seats. That and technology (video feeds) could reduce that disconnect a bit.
I don’t really know who wants those jobs these days. Its really become an unserious enterprise. Lots of vacuous people looking to be the kardasians of DC. Famous for being famous and infamy will do just fine if the check clears.
I fear a revolution of the proletariat or that of some form of populist nationalism if we don’t address some of these issues that have been tearing at the middle class for decades now.
I would be interested in hearing how the Georgia legislature’s proximity to the people is leading to better governing, ideas, etc… Its been a long time since I’ve heard something both new and sensible. In short, I don’t know that any governmental body out there: federal, state local is in a position to pat themselves on the back and say: see, this is how you do it! Maybe it exists and I don’t know about it.
“I fear a revolution of the proletariat,” well at least the French were able to clear up some of their problems with an intrusive clergy. When the pendulum swings to the extreme, it usually self corrects.
Why is it not practical? Because the federal government has gone way out of its bounds as set forth in the Constitution. That isn’t a left or right thing … it’s just a thing.
Whether or not a religious or moral belief informs a policy position/decision is one thing. It is quite another for religious text/belief to become an imperative in a society where we don’t all share and agree on those issues. Didn’t JFK have to give a speech making clear that he wasn’t going to be taking orders from Rome? We have to be able to separate these things out a little bit. There is far too much conflict between the two obligations and as the video underscores, these issues at their core have very little to do with each other because they are addressing two completely distinct matters. The most essential intersection is having a government that secures your right to believe whatever the hell you want at home and in church, but when it comes time to dealing with threats to that security we won’t be turning any cheeks.
I certainly believe in peace through strength. As I said, I didn’t watch the video, but my reaction was more about whether religious organizations regardless of background have a right to participate in the public square.
Not at all. The issue addressed is whether the listeners should be happy/proud about purchasing a Bible that includes the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution. The pastor gets pretty impassioned about placing the Founders on par with God and Jesus as if they’re fungible items addressing similar concerns. I thought he made an important point.
As a Bible believing, flawed Christian, I find anything that attempts to make our historical documents on par with inspired scripture to be repugnant.
So endeth the lesson.
yes sir I am willing to give that up if that is what it takes to make every organization pay taxes. Does the Clinton Foundation deserve to be tax exempt? How about pro athletes that start a foundation named after themselves to avoid paying taxes? I understand it may be a strain on charities to pay tax but I get raped on a weekly basis by the IRS. And for the record, I make a tithe and offering weekly to our church, have a monthly deduction for St. Jude’s and Tunnel to Towers as well. It would suck losing the tax deduction, but I am willing to do that in this instance.
Organizations don’t pay taxes. They pass the cost on to the consumer. In the case of NFPs, all this would do is reduce their ability to provide services with the money you contribute. I would rather St. Jude’s, for example, to provide care to 100 additional kids than send that money to Washington, DC to fund some pet project/vote buying scheme of a career politician.
But that’s just me.
Regarding the video, “Can I get an amen?” Why should there be a tax exemption for a list of “holy” men such as these? According to Forbes, the top ten richest pastors in the world and their net worth as of 2023 are listed below, from youngest to oldest.
Benny Hinn – $42 Million
Pastor Chris Oyakhilome – $50 Million
Pastor Joel Osteen – $40 Million
Pastor Enoch Adeboye – $39 Million
Bishop T.D Jakes – $147 Million
Bishop David Oyedepo – $200 Million
Kenneth Copeland – $300 Million
Creflo Dollar – $27 Million
Billy Graham – $25 Million
Rick Warren – $25 Million
I’m happy with tax exempt status (501c) if the church is audited annually and can prove that they spend as high a percentage of their “tithes” as the Salvation Army does on providing for the less fortunate. Not spending delivering the message, but actual relief for the afflicted.
Riding a Gulfstream G800 will get you closer to God. So I’ve heard.
Preach on brother!
What does the money tied to Rick Warren’s writing have to do with this? He wrote a book in The Purpose Driven Life that has been a global best seller.
Saddleback Church does a lot of good in Southern California.
Matthew 6:19-21 :“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.”
The churches in out metropolitan areas could easily fix homelessness, but they won’t. They would rather exalt their leaders with riches and build temples to his glory.
“Never trust a preacher with more than two suits.” — Lenny Bruce.
Matthew 7:1 – I’ll let God deal with whether someone is a good steward.
I’ll see your “judge not lest ye be judged” with a Matthew 21:12. Jesus was not content for His Father to take care of the situation bye and bye, but charged into the temple to break up what He saw as a den of robbers. I see a lot of parallels now. I see very, very few in the clergy calling out this hypocrisy.
Upton Sinclair — ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.’
Jesus is omnipotent and omniscient. He knew what those religious leaders were doing and why. He is the perfect judge. He called out the religious leaders consistently throughout the Gospel accounts.
I have no idea if those pastors are doing right, wrong or being good stewards of the money they are entrusted with. I darn sure don’t know enough about them to paint them as greedy.
Three biblical spheres of authority on Earth today:
Church: Matt 16:16-19 Clearly heaven and heart focused. That means all earthly authority of the church is towards the visible volunteer members of their own organization. Any other voice of the church is purely advisory.
Family: Genesis 2 Fathers have reasonable authority over their own households where it doesn’t interfere with church and state authority. In other words, fathers can reasonably discipline inside their own households but cannot imprison or execute because the power of the sword lies with the state. Familial discipline should focus on positive behavior change not punishment.
Government: Romans 13 The power of the state is the only God ordained authority to be established after the fall. It is the only authority that will certainly be abolished at glorification. It was specifically built to reign in the effects of sin post flood Gen 9:6. Because it was made as a necessary evil we can expect it to be evil even as it does its job 1 Samuel 8. Its only job is to wield the power of the sword ROM 13:4 (internal and external defense/police and army).
Because of sin, Preachers are less heaven and heart focused than they should be. Because of sin, Fathers fail to lead in a loving way. Because of sin, governments always want to usurp more authority to themselves than is given them.
Derek’s pastor is largely correct; those that want to mix church and state are committing a grave error; specifically the Constantinian Error (or heresy depending on viewpoint…).
Well stated. It doesn’t mean faith doesn’t have a role in the public square.
Loran Livingston is a big deal in Charlotte. Then again, so is Steven Furtick. Take that how you will.
It seems relevant to this discussion that Louisiana just passed a law that every school must post the Ten Commandments in every classroom.
Can we hold off on that discussion for about a week?