While topics these days are pretty easy to find, the one I chose for the week is, at least to my mind, a serious one and ought to be approached sincerely and with due circumspection: the arrests and detentions, including in El Salvadorian hellholes, of documented and undocumented non-citizens.
I begin with the presumption that if you apply for and are granted a visa, for whatever reason, travel, education, employment, etc… that due to its very nature you are not here with the full rights of a citizen. I would expect that if government agents decide that you had breached the terms of your visa that you could be “disinvited.” In other words, you could be told: “your visa is revoked. Please catch a flight home by X date or else.” So long as that departure date was a reasonable one under the circumstances, I would suspect that could be done and enforced even without any sort of due process. (Often times you aren’t admitted into a country without a departure flight booked, so scheduling with your airline notwithstanding, it shouldn’t be that hard to comply.)
I would not expect that breach of visa terms to be tied to engaging in some form of political speech, no matter how repugnant that speech may be. Would I expect terrible treatment if, as a visitor to China, I participated in a protest in the name of the Uyghurs? Sure. Its China. Would I expect a visitor from Denmark to be detained for participating in a pro-Nazi rally? No, I wouldn’t.
Nor should you. This is America. We have heretofore protected unpopular and even really stupid speech and we don’t favor or disfavor certain viewpoints nor have we traditionally selected non-citizens for disparate treatment for speaking/writing.
But perhaps the government can, because of the nature of a visa, decide that certain ideas are disfavored and invite a departure. Fine, whatever. That’s not a hill I wish to die on, but not one I would favor building, policing or watching shift with the political winds. But, again, whatever. What I would not expect is the arrest and detention of a visa holder or of a permanent resident with no showing of dangerousness/necessity at a pre-detention hearing with a judge. I would not expect a government official to say: “we put Tourist X in jail because I say they are a danger and no I will not go to court and I will not show my work first. And btw allowing the person to just go to the airport would put lives in danger. Why? Because I work for the government and I say so.”
That sounds like something you would expect in the former East Germany.
As for non-visa holders, while I certainly would expect deportations of undocumented people, I would not expect people to be thrown into a third-country’s prison based on the word of a bureaucrat with no hearing. I can’t think of any precedent for that sort of exercise of power from any country to any third country.
And while I can imagine in theory that there are dangerous criminals for whom there are no pending charges/convictions and no home country to go to, I would expect any government apparatchik in this country to be prepared to show a judge their work before sending any human being into a deep dark hole in a foreign country indefinitely.
I would have thought that Americans had a basic universal agreement on these basic lets call them human rights.
Hell, Ann Coulter and I agree on this one.
But not all agree and it appears that the banality of evil is here and is playing among us.
I read this article from a conservative publication written by an author who has been penning them most of my adult life, with both amazement and horror. Rich Lowry is not dumb. He knows better.
To say simply, “eh, it’ll sort itself out” is a response lacking in the most basic human empathy or fealty to anything I recognize as American. The article leaves open the possibility that penning an op-ed might just be enough to justify being jailed and forcibly removed. The article observes that the Government may have a tough case on their hands, but not a whiff of regard that there is human woman in a prison in the meantime.
I would suggest this retort better captures what is in the balance here.
Discuss.
Rent free!
GOT HIM!! King of the slams right here folks!
It’s so easy to be a Trumper. You never have to have an original thought, just post a meme.
It’s one of the many benefits of being in a cult. Never having to exhaust your caloric intake on brain function is the essence of conservatism.
Go to any carpet mill or chicken processing plant in MTG’s district and you’ll find dozens of illegals. Those republican business owners will NEVER give up their low cost labor.
What would a chicken cost at publix if it were processed in a plant fully staffed by American citizens?
The truth of the matter is that the same voters who are animated about immigration would shrug if those plant owners had a human market in El Paso and Brownsville. Moreover, they would line up to gain employment as overseers to keep the labor in line at the plant owner’s behest.
Equally as sickening is the move in many red states to weaken regulations on child labor laws so that these plant owners can replace any lost labor due to deporting their illegals with domestic teenagers who should be in school rather than in a rendering plant.
“I would not expect that breach of visa terms to be tied to engaging in some form of political speech, no matter how repugnant that speech may be.”
The two questions that come to my mind that I am not sure I can answer are:
What constitutes protected political speech?
Should citizens enjoy the same, more, or less protected political speech than non-citizens?
Your first question has been answered by the courts and when it comes to political speech, the 1st covers pretty much any damn thing.
I think I answered the second in the post.
Do I think Biden should turn around a foreign tourist at JFK airport for the sin of wearing a maga hat? No.
Could he have done so? Probably, as I don’t know what recourse the travel visa holder would have.
I just think its a bad idea for the American government to be spending its time trying to figure out what political speech it wants to disfavor from anyone, including foreign nationals. Whether that is a first amendment violation in a technical sense I cannot answer mainly because I don’t know the traveler’s recourse. It certainly would violate the 1st amendment’s spirit.
But again, my bigger concern isn’t putting the maga hat wearer on the next plane back to his home nation of Stupidistan, its putting that person in cuffs and then in jail to await some cursory removal proceeding several weeks away. That’s just plain tyrannical.
For my clarity, your issue isn’t the legality of the ability to deport someone, it is the process and methods that are currently being used?
In summary:
1) its the choosing process. Giving anyone with documentation the shoe because of political speech is shitty, but gestapo away if you must.
2) if you’re going to put documented people in jail, show a judge something convincing way over and above “they’ve invaded my safe space with words.”
3) if you’re going to deport an undocumented person, maybe an El Salvadorian hellhole isn’t a great idea especially when they’ve already pretty clearly selected, and in one case admitted it, the wrong people for such treatment.
The irony with the right is always amazing. Why can’t we have a government that involves itself in retirement, health care, education, etc…? Because the government is bad at everything! Grossly inefficient! They can’t tie their own shoes!! We can’t trust them with MY money!!
Can the government be trusted to select people for execution wherein gumbit workers strap someone to a gurney and then kill them?
Sure. What’s there to worry about there?
Its like the reverse of any rational analysis. The grosser, and more irreversible, the display of gubmit power it is the more the right both like and trust it.
Every time I point this discrepancy out to a winger I get a glassy eyed confused stare. Why? Because they haven’t spent even a minute on trying to construct a consistent, rational world view. Its all driven by base reptilian brain response.
I’m definitely not for deporting people without due process. That is some scary shit and we all know where it eventually leads. I am also not big on the idea of foreign folks coming here on a visa, vacation or whatever, and being allowed to publicly protest our government in front of our schools, city halls, and generally stir up shit. Screw that. They can protest back in their own country as far as I am concerned….if their government allows them that is. Otherwise, they can STFU and chew with their mouth closed as long as they are a visitor. If they don’t like how we do things, I suggest they raise an army an invade us.
So, you’re not “big on the idea” of America? It’s funny how the group that wants to make America great again, really isn’t fond of what makes America, America.
First of all Asshat, I am not a MAGA Trumper. Second of all, I know what the idea of America is. Third, I’m pretty sure we started this whole thing because we didn’t like foreigners telling us how to run our shit.
1) Please try to limit name-calling to me.
2) I’m not sure that very many are 100% on board with what
America means at all times. There is always something somewhere that will cross someone’s line who then wants to restrict that person’s freedoms.
3) far more complicated than a simple matter of freedom from British rule. The primary issue was a government of for and by the people. It was a deconstruction of the feudal, class-based system. Had Britain turned the King into the current ceremonial, tourist attraction by the mid-1700’s all of that may well have been avoided and delayed to the next century. Why the American Revolution doesn’t get credit for being “revolutionary” is a mystery to me.
That guy has been insulting folks here for weeks. He deserves to be called out.
Hey Derek, calling people stupid and members of a cult is not name-calling? Also, that’s over half the country you’re talking about. You and your little toady Grafton need to grow up.
Gurka, I don’t have a problem with names directed into the ether or directed towards me. I mean directed at another participant. If I’ve missed one or more, I’m sorry. The request is intended to have global application. Plenty of people have directed insults at other half of the country. And no one got the vapors.
Good comment BTW.
I’m sorry that my words upset you.
What is the idea of America? I have a one word answer myself and it is Freedom. However, there are laws associated with freedom. I think both sides try to decide which laws they don’t want and that ain’t real fair. There’s a lot about this idea of America that’s trying to get hijacked by both sides.
Tell me the most significant, far reaching, most impactful freedom stripping law, policy, or proposal from the democrats and then do the same with the republicans.
Let’s see how the bothsiderism here works out under some scrutiny.
Ummmmm, I’m saying both sides are wrong for doing that.
What is your point in asking this?
Just to see if you could justify the “bothersiderism.”
I hate to suggest a lack of sincerity, but I am doubting that Nigel Farage’s visits to Mar-o-Lago in support of replacing the Biden administration drew a lot of anger.
The problem with the sentiment isn’t that watching a tourist burn a flag, as an example, shouldn’t piss you off, the question is where exactly do you cut?
Here it appears that any vocal or written support for the Palestinians is deemed anti-American and a danger to the nation, which, if established, would as an example be a bar to the admission from pretty much any person from the Republic of Ireland.
(Fyi: there is lots of sympathy for the Palestinians in the Republic of Ireland who see that conflict as a parallel to their own history with the English/British.)
This whole situation feels like the way the KKK was years ago. Protecting organized rallies that incite large groups of people to eradicate other large groups of people doesn’t feel right to me regardless of all the legalese one can wade through to protect it, or not.
Can you think of any private industry that has an eligibility timeframe? Neither can the courts.
I’d like to see an eligibility timeframe for US Congressmen.
I’d like someone to explain to me what that fixes.
fitin2 <— because WordPress seems to insist I post as Anonymous
This isn't a complex issue. You attempt to muddy the water by blending illegal with legal immigration and adding a 1st Amendment component as frosting on the cake. So lets disassemble and "discuss".
Illegal immigration is pretty cut and dried – if you entered this country illegally, you should be deported. There is a legal process for coming here; ignore it and you reap what you sow. As of today, I have not seen any evidence that anyone's abuela has been sent to El Salvador. A couple of the MS-13 and TdA choir boys have pleaded their innocence, but after the tragedies of Laken Riley, Jocelyn Nungary, Rachel Morin and others, I have no more fucks to give. I do find it strange that your concern is over illegal immigrant (alleged) gang members and NOT the 400k plus children who were brought into this country by the previous administration and allowed to vanish into thin air. Odd that.
After the unprecedented influx of illegal immigrants over the last 4 years, extraordinary measures were required to address the myriad social, medical, economic and yes, political issues that engendered. The attempt is currently being made to rectify this, and it appears to be the correct one because all the right people are apoplectic about it. Please continue to oppose this.
Legal immigration through student or H1B visas come with certain declarations and expectations. No one gives a rat's ass if you want to join a protest, hold a sign and sing your little "Hey Hey, Ho Ho, {blank} has got to go" chant. But once you use threatening speech to intimidate and harass a group of people, pass out literature that endorses violence against an individual or group of people, verbally threaten people with physical violence, destroy property, and/or impede other people from exercising THEIR Constitutional rights (like attending a class they paid for), then you have violated the terms of your visa and should be shown the door. The visa revocation of the Hamas supporters inciting and enacting violence is completely warranted (and they are not being sent to El Salvador). This behavior isn't protected by the 1st Amendment. But if you really care about protecting freedom of speech, I would direct you to the attempt to establish the Disinformation Governance Board by the previous administration. Nothing says WE SUPPORT FREE SPEECH like government censorship! I'm sure you were equally aghast about this Orwellian abomination.
Even the Trump administration pettifogs the issue with admissions of error.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-official-admits-administrative-error-in-deporting-man-to-el-salvador/ar-AA1C5dkL?ocid=BingNewsSerp
The problem with your “ifs” is that it requires you to trust the gubmit which typically your ilk is unwilling to do.
Why the sudden trust in bureaucrats?
Once again, you can’t refute anything in my previous post, so I instantly become “ilk”. Name calling as always. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, so I will spell it out for you. I don’t give a shit if a person in this country illegally gets accidentally sent to the wrong destination when they are deported. They rolled the dice and took their chances when they crossed the border illegally. There are abundant resources available to explain the various means for identifying and deporting illegal aliens. Not all of them include a day in court and a jury of their peers. The DHS website would be a good place to start. Despite the gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and general Chicken Little reaction from the left, everyone being deported IS an illegal alien. And they all have been identified as such by authorities that I trust to be correct in said identification. This “due process” that suddenly means so much to the left was sadly lacking when the previous administration locked up 1400 mostly peaceful protesters for 3 years before even giving them a court date. But those American citizen’s due process didn’t register on your outrage meter because they were a different “ilk”. Perhaps if your concern was equally distributed to all, it would be more believable. But keep trying……….
The density of the lies is impressive. No Jan 6er made bond? You sure about that? I think you’re telling lies. Hell, I know you are. I don’t even have to look that one up. Do you also not care that you aren’t factual?
The story I sent was about a person legally present who the administration has admitted to accidentally sending to El Salvador. (Sorry for name calling btw. Do you prefer I use “small humid nation with jail cells?” “Ilk” is not name-calling ffs. Try a dictionary. But as we know you don’t gaf about facts or human beings.)
People with visas are legally present. People who are permanent residents are legally present. Yet both are being jailed for nothing more than not toeing this particular administration’s line. I get that you don’t care. Maybe you should ask yourself where you lost your soul, your capacity for empathy and gained a disdain for truth.
“Ilk.” Vocabulary.com Dictionary, Vocabulary.com, https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/ilk. Accessed 02 Apr. 2025.
You’re right. I explicitly said no Jan 6er made bond, right there in paragraph….um….sentence…..er…..perhaps you can help me locate it. More of your Things I Didn’t Say for $500 Alex. Being called a liar by an idiot that believes everything that drops out of CNN’s ass is a compliment. You have obviously never heard of the fool me once rule. I would refer you to Julie Kelly for a LONG ass list of the judicial malpractice exercised against those individuals by the DC courts. MOST of them were rushed in front of a judge, denied bond, had illegal 1512(c)2 enhancements added to their charges (later overturned by the Supreme Court) and spent years in DC jails awaiting sentencing. Which was constantly being postponed and rescheduled. The tactics used to coerce defendants into taking plea deals to avoid the above mentioned enhancement bordered on torture. American jurisprudence at its finest. But according to you, all those people, their attorneys and their families made it all up, and I am just spreading their lies for shits and giggles. And the real problem we should be concerned with is that some illegal might have been wrongfully detained in the herculean attempt to deport millions of them? Yeah, run with that. PLEASE
The law says everyone is entitled to due process. Everyone. It doesn’t matter how they got here, legally or illegally. Everyone is entitled to speak with a lawyer and have a hearing before a judge. Even those who are being deported legally for cause are entitled to have representation and a hearing before that deportation takes place. We do not live in a country where it is legal to snatch someone off the street, put them on a plane and fly them out of the country without due process. We are a nation of laws. No rationalization or justification makes it okay to ignore the law.
Now do the Jan 6 protesters………I’ll hang up and listen.
Everyone had a lawyer and the right to bond consideration before a judge. And if you didn’t know that, well you should.
wrong again…..but you’re used to that.
Dude. Stop digging. Everyone gets a lawyer and a bond hearing. If you don’t know that, read something. Anything. No reason to pollute the forum with nonsense.
Derek – Going sideways as usual, I want to slip back to yesterday’s Playpen Lite and the concept that “real men” are those that express their feelings in strong emphatic actions designed to protect their space and convictions. Some shared their relationships with their Dad and how that tutelage formulated the men that they are today, as it should.
My Dad was on the battleship the U.S.S. Texas at Iwo Jima, so the iconic raising of the flag has particular meaning to me. The fact that the minions of Captain Bone-Spurs have deemed that any Marines’ participation in that heroic act was not worthy of recording has left me flabbergasted and sad that the Marines in our readership can’t let go of the cult for a second and call the action to remove bravery by any Marine from the history books an anathema. Where is the Semper Fi?
It has puzzled me that the followers of the Donald don’t really seem to know much about him. His Granddaddy was a draft dodger from Austria who came here to avoid conscription. He ran whorehouses successfully, as documented in this gift from Trudeau to Trump https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1449880/justin-trudeau-trolls-trump-with-framed-photo-of-his-grandfathers-canadian-brothel/ But, when Friedrich tried to return to Austria with his riches, he was prevented from entering until he served his military obligation. So, back to America he came. His anti-military gene being passed down for 4-5 generations.
Trump’s father was arrested in 1927 at a Klan rally that go out of hand. His long history of renter discrimination culminated in a complaint by the justice department for violations of the Fair Housing Act. https://clearinghouse.net/case/15342/. In addition to being a bigot, he was also a misogynist. In fairness, if your daddy ran whorehouses, you might not have the most favorable view of women. It went to the depth of telling his daughter-in-law what she could and could not eat. https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/18/opinions/trump-should-have-eaten-more-fish-michael-d-opinion/index.html
These are the trees that the little acorn Donald sprouted from.
The Donald was a troubled child. The story is told in his book “The Art of the Deal” of how he either hit or physically beat up an elementary school teacher. His parents’ inability to control him led him to being sent to a military school. The Donald’s remembrances (The Art of the Deal) of the school were of constant beatings to teach him basic manners. Apparently, some of the “teachings” took because the Donald eats Kentucky Fired Chicken to this day with a knife and fork. The only happy times for the Donald were the dances when his parents brought up local models to be his dates at the formal dances. The Donald reveled in the attention he received from having a beautiful girl on his arm. It gave him validation where he could find none in academics or other pursuits.
“It doesn’t really matter what (the media) write as long as you’ve got a young and beautiful piece of ass.” https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-donald-trump-election-2020-campaign-2016-events-2eea389b1e5b49f8afb28c4a6d079b09
The Donald’s lack of intellectual curiosity is well documented as well as his lack of charity and empathy. In one sense you could feel sorry for a child that was so intellectually compromised being born in a time when the awareness of how to treat ADHD was not as good as it is now. He might have fallen completely through the cracks if not for the $500 million dollar inheritance he received and the constant support he received from his father in his failed ventures. Failed ventures like casinos where he used actual gold in his casinos’ decorations rather than flake. Where he turned the lights up so everyone could see his decorations rather than the conventional wisdom of keeping things dim.
In the book “Trumped” we learn, “I’ve got black accountants at Trump Castle and at Trump Plaza. Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys wearing yarmulkes…. Those are the only kind of people I want counting my money. Nobody else… Besides that, I’ve got to tell you something else. I think that the guy’s lazy. And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks.”
It has been estimated that Trump could have invested his inheritance in index funds and been wealthier than using the money for real estate ventures: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2021/10/11/its-official-trump-would-be-richer-if-he-had-just-invested-his-inheritance-into-the-sp500/
Give that a thought for a moment. The Donald could have been a legitimate billionaire and he wouldn’t have had to go to the Russians for money.
Ok, so here we are, and I’d like to make this point clear, if you choose to discuss what I’ve written let’s all agree to be adults and keep it in the “now.” It is the Trump administration, and the Republicans control everything. If Joe Biden didn’t wipe properly after going to the bathroom, it’s not relevant to the discussion of America being caught in the grip of some seriously racist monsters. Each time I get a rebuttal that “Hillary did this, etc.” it reminds me of me using the excuse in my youth of “Well Johnny did so and so” and my Dad replying, “Well if Johnny jumped off a bridge, would that make it right?”
“No…….”
lololololololol……….TDS is very real….get some treatment bro
Important life lessons from the “FJB!” crowd.
Anon,
Hello darkness, my old friend.
If you can dispute anything I said, please do, and we can discuss. To dismiss the reality of what we have in the White House with A Fox and Friends buzzword is insulting to both of us.
If the Democrats were in power and you brought up the fact that Nancy Pelosi won’t back a bill that prevents congress critters from trading in stocks, I’d be right there with you. There is bad and evil and self interest on both sides. To dismiss the evil when it’s your team is disingenuous, and we are watching some serious evil doing, and your guys happen to be in power.
Only evil I see is an ideology that mass murders unborn children then sells their body parts for cash, “vanishes” 400k unaccompanied minors, sterilizes living children because of the mental diseases of their parents or greed of their doctors, then jumps on their moral soapbox to proclaim how righteous they are. Orange Hitler will never break your side’s record for evil no matter how hard he tries. But his daddy was a meanie, so at least you have that going for you…………
The answer is more government.
Anon, Not that I would ever doubt your veracity, could you provide links for the assorted claims you’ve made? I know “it’s not up to you to do my research,” but you seem so well versed on the topics that you can easily provide them like I did for the Trump mini-biography. Thanks in advance.
Budlite, put down the cup bro.
Gurkha – I was just about to put my cup in place. Are you saying it’s safe now and I no longer need it? Nothin’ worse that a kick in the ‘nads.
Wait. Your Dad was at Iwo Jima and you were in what war again?
My Dad was on the USS Texas at Iwo Jima
https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/us-navy-ships/battleships/texas-bb-35.html
I’ve made no claim to participating in a war.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/333358-obama-equated-trumps-success-to-the-goal-of-the-american-dream-as-law/
A lot of people seem to have bought into that BS.
That’s the dumbest shit ever. Clearly he was saying: “I may not be wealthy now, but….”
It wasn’t an endorsement of the guy. He wasn’t saying:
“I may not have won the sperm lottery yesterday, but I may tomorrow!”
Sorry to change the subject, but this is timely. Can any of you MAGA guys explain why Trump is putting tarrifs on goods from countries all over the world, except for Russia and Hungary? Please explain, Comrade.
Their God works in mysterious ways.
Are you implying that Trump doesn’t want to help America and that he wants to help Russia and Hungary? If so, you’re really not rational.
Clint,
He wants to help himself. He couldn’t give a rat’s ass about America. If we are lucky enough to find that what serves him, serves us, great. If those interests are in conflict we are fucked. Plus you have to account for competently achieving self-interest. When you’re bankrupting casinos and defrauding people, it makes me skeptical that even selfishness can be well achieved no matter how desirous.
Clint
I’m not implying anything. I want to know what rational reason there would be to leave two dictatorships off the tariff list while virtually every other country on the planet is in it.
He could have said any of that. He could have also named literally any other rich and famous person. But he didn’t. He named Donald f’ing Trump. He did so because veryone over 40 knows that Trump was known and admired by people from all walks of life for many years. Just because you don’t want that to be true doesn’t mean it isn’t.
You’re correct. A lot of people fell for that BS.
No one ever uses “Rockefeller” as a figure of speech. Ever. Its always a substantive love fest for a Rockefeller and you always know whether they mean David or Nelson or the other who knows the fuck how many? Arguing otherwise is pointless.
If you think Obama was endeared to donnie, say so. Believe it. Ask him. I personally could give a rat’s ass if you think Barack Obama loved the guy, even after the jackass paid for an ad calling for the execution of five innocent black kids. I doubt it, but you do you. You present that article and quote as evidence of something and I say it clearly falls short of its intended target. Whatever.
“To be or not to be” I guess and I write those words because I admire and know every line of Shakespeare not because it possibly fits (maybe not very well) but is very well known. No one does that.
Now stop interrupting my eating of this Sandwich. I’m a big fan of the Earl you know. Later I’m having a Napoleon to honor his campaign against Russia. I may follow it with a glass of Bourbon in honor of that French family I am so well familiar with as all Bourbon drinkers are.
Derek – going sideways to the tariff discussion. I have a passing interest in the market, and because of my profound, grotesque TDS, I follow the stock DJT Media which is the parent of Truth Social Media. DJT had a high of $97.54 on 03/04/22 and is currently trading at $18.41, down around 80%. Are we winning yet?
Don Jr. earned $813,000 in 2024 as a director of the company for attending two board meetings. The $813,000 was one-fourth of the company’s income. The company reported $400 million in losses for 2024. Sounds like bizarro math, right?
A business can spend more than it earns by spending retained earnings(none), getting a loan, or by bringing in more “dumb money,” excuse me, new investors. Have a look: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/DJT/balance-sheet/ There is also the possibility of tapping old resources that don’t necessarily expect the stock to be the value they receive.
Comes the news today that DJT has filed to sell a major block of stock, possibly netting $2B back to the Donald. https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-media-stock-crash-djt-donald-trump-trust-sell-shares-2025-4
Again, just a passing interest, but it seems like the holders of DJT will be able to use their stock certificates to line the holes in the soles of their Trump sneakers. Just a heads up if you were worried about the dip in your 401k.
Man, I thought TSLA was a bad risk. :~)
Its all a con.