It occurred to me sometime ago that there was a relatively straightforward solution to many of our systematic societal problems, specifically as it relates to generational poverty, in both rural and urban areas, including substance abuse/addiction, public safety, infrastructure, single parent households and many, many others. I am curious as to what you all think of the idea as a policy prescription.
(Whether or not a constitutional amendment would be required may or may not be correct, but simply begs the question anyway, so lets avoid that and focus on whether it would, or would not, be as good an idea as I think it is.)
The idea is this: within a particular age range, my thinking is 16 to 24, every citizen would be required to establish that they are:
- in school/college,
- in job training,
- in public service,
- in the military, or
- employed full time.
It would be similar to the Selective Service obligation, but obviously a bit more involved. Those who were not so engaged would be obligated to choose from:
- on the job training,
- employment with a public agency engaged in improving infrastructure and/or community beautification, or
- military service
If your life circumstances were such that these were your only options, the intention would be to transfer you to some other area of the country where you would be placed among people you would have been unlikely to have been exposed to or interacted with where you came from.
Life skills, money management, civics, parenting, general adult responsibilities and other things you need to know to have a chance in the world would be taught, and expected to be learned, in order to complete the obligations. Aptitude and capacity would be assessed. Needs would be identified and addressed. Once the program is successfully completed, placement into private/public jobs would be mandatory with temporary review/confirmation and/or retraining as necessary.
The physically and mentally disabled would be exempted and if some rich trust fund baby wanted to purchase an exemption so they can collect interest, backpack Europe and find themselves, at some ridiculous fee, whatever.
The bottom line is that there would be no option to sit around selling drugs, using drugs, contemplating your next criminal enterprise or just feeling sorry for yourself. If physically and mentally able to participate and you simply refuse, we’ll stick you in a cell until you’re old enough that your usefulness as a criminal will have expired. Obviously, the option to re-engage in the program would be available at anytime.
My supposition is that a few generations into the future many of the problems we see would slowly fade away. In fact, if done correctly, available participants in the program would eventually evaporate, prisons would depopulate, cartels would lose entry-level customers, etc., etc….
Discuss.
Nope. Because humans aren’t perfectable. There is no program that will eliminate social problems. Would this help? It might. I don’t know.
Screw it then. Close the schools, churches and prisons. All complete wastes of time.
Yeah it’s exactly the same thing. I guess when you posted this you thought everybody was just going to tell you that you’re right. lol.
“Betterment” would be the through line there. And yes, every week everyone agrees with me. Why would this one be any different?
Regression to the mean? Big sweeping programs instituted to eliminate social problems have been tried over and over with varying degrees of government/ruling class force behind them and those social problems still exist. It’s almost like it’s baked into the cake where humans are concerned. I doubt you’re so special and unique that you’ve hit upon the case cracker. But I guess it’s possible that you’re one in a billion. lol.
Do you mean like “land grant universities?” How has that taxpayer funded boondoggle work out?
Now it turns out people with useless degrees who scream about how oppressed they are despite having it easier than anyone in human history. Cool shit.
Appreciate the sentiment, but It sounds like the “reeducation camps”, dare I say gulags of old.
You could call a high school a madrassa to be, if you wanted to.
New Laws –>New criminals
Derek is so smart, he figures he can lure facisits and commies out of the woodwork on a football blog and fool them into endorsing Stalinistic policies. SMH.
“fascists”
Stalin literally invented “truancy.”
Its sad to me that the same people who did this:
don’t believe in their capacity to do a damn thing.
Cynical, sedentary and resigned. Pitiful.
It definitely would require a constitutional amendment. I think a better way to handle this would be to remove the motivation not to work … the social “safety net” casts too widely and it encourages some to be a permanent underclass. Also, if criminal enterprise is easier (and the risk is acceptable) than going to boot camp, entering technical school, etc. and you can earn more for less work, many are happy to take the risk. Frankly, parents have a responsibility to make sure their children do one of the things you recommend. I’ve seen both sides of that up close and personal where one kid becomes a successful professional and the other isn’t a productive member of society.
Freedom without responsibility/accountability leads to a variety of problems.
Responsibility/accountability without freedom is the road to serfdom.
I’ve never seen a parent take a first day of school picture of their kid holding up a chalkboard that says they want to be a drug dealer or own a meth lab when they grow up.
The parents we need to worry about don’t take any pictures of their kids at all.
That’s fair. My only point is that this problem has many facets. You have to try the break the cycle now and then deal with the problems we currently have separately.
I’ve been reading Factfulness … it’s a good read that challenges a lot of our Western preconceived notions about the world without discounting the real problems we have. There’s no apparent political bias (although I suspect the author leans left politically). I highly recommend.
You don’t think criminality is an alternative to work? Able bodied men don’t have a safety net. Put on some shitty clothes and take your ass to some gubmit building with your handout. They’ll point you to a homeless shelter.
If you think the trailer park and section 8 housing is just too attractive a lifestyle, I simply disagree. Most money spent on social services goes to or is spent because of kids. Like school lunches and school breakfasts. If you think hungrier kids will lead to greater prosperity and lower crime rates, I am doubtful of that connection.
I think we have a combination of hopelessness, anti-social alternatives that get quicker results and parents who have been generational products of poverty to the extent that they have little capacity to guide their offspring towards a productive life. If your concept is that these places are full of perfectly capable parents, who are simply distracted by their gubmit largesse, I don’t think that would bear itself out upon close inspection.
As far as parents and their responsibilities, we could rely upon them to provide education to their kids at home from pre-k through doctoral programs. We don’t. My supposition is that some parents would fall on their faces at some point. Some on step 1. All would falter at some point along the way.
There is no question that freedom has its costs. We’re never going to be Singapore or Tokyo. The thing I fear is that there is no natural, organic way out of this generational poverty situation. It doesn’t seem to be getting better. Prisons are a very, very expensive taxpayer safety net. Its roughly 35k a year. No other government program costs that much per head. I think we can get a lot more for our money. More domestic labor. Lower prices for goods. More taxpayers. Fewer tax burdens. There has never been a better time to be a non-college educated skilled worker. Why? All the available competition is on drugs, in prison or in mommas basement playing video games.
“There has never been a better time to be a non-college educated skilled worker.”
Why is that? I have some suspicions … none of them good and there’s plenty of blame to spread around for it.
I think we can fix it.
I do, too, but I don’t think the politicians and the bureaucracy at all levels want to fix it policy wise. This discussion could go in so many different directions – parental responsibility, illegal immigration, tax policy, spending priorities, the national debt, education policy, etc.
The general attitude these days is that we can’t solve any problems for anyone. I had no thoughts of actual implementation. Our politics are pretty broken right now. The ncaa having to pay out 2.8 billion because no antitrust exemption is possible in this environment underscores that reality. There is no coalition building or compromise. I was just curious about how the readership would react. In terms of goals you would think conservatives would be at least intrigued. Its a pretty straightforward way to rid ourselves of a lot of the so called “takers” and replace them with “producers” or at least sober workers. Its pretty shocking to me that no one really focused on the possible functionality of such a policy and how rather than 19 year old carjackers and robbers we could instead providing them with life skills. Those late teens are the fucking worst. Instead there is retreat to an ideological predisposition no matter how attractive the ends might be or how well they might be achieved. I really don’t know how we got stuck on “can’t.” We used to believe we could do anything we set out to do.
I think the goal is right (and just). I also believe the coalition building and the cooperation needed to do it may need to be done outside the federal government framework. Even then, it may be the private sector teaming with good NFPs to make it happen.
Criminality absolutely is an alternative to work. Jesse James’s quote about robbing banks because that’s where the money is is proof enough of that. The internet scammers of today employ the same mindset.
Well for starters, take all cell phones. I’ve gotten to the point that if someone has their head buried in a phone and they are in my path walking toward me I no longer step aside and when we collide the look on their face is priceless.
I work in a system where we are compelling all students to enroll in advanced coursework, dual enrollment, or work-based learning, and guaranteeing an education that readies all students to be college or career ready, yet not all families and students look to take advantage of such opportunities. Many even opt out, essentially saying “no thanks”. While the system exists, free will still allows people to opt for the pathway of their own choosing, good or bad. Mindset is a hell of a thing.
I propose we set up some temporary guardrails.
There’s no such thing as “temporary” when it comes to government. Tax withholding became a thing as a temporary measure to support the war effort (1943). 81 years later, it’s still with us except people who get refunds now think of April 15 as refund day.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_agencies_of_the_United_States_government
As the Senator would say to those parents or kids, that’s a hell of a way to run a railroad.
The question is what do we do about those who opt out and then have children they may not be able to support of their own.
Been there done that “FDR New Deal”. Believe the Supreme’s declared some of it unconstitutional, so you are right about the need for Constitutional amendment(s). I like the idea though.
Aw Jeez, it’s Wednesday and we are going to attempt to solve all of societal’s ills on a football blog in 500 words or less.
Derek, let me start by saying I’m usually a big fan, I generally “grok” what you are putting down. While a “Starship Troopers” approach might yield some positive results, as did the CCC and WPA, there is a proven solution that costs less and has proven generational results. Please review the 1972 Rockefeller Commission results. If your desired result is reduced crime and more productive citizens in a couple of generations, look no further.
I also take exception to putting the onus on the powerless and allowing the powerful to skate. The skaters are going to skate and your plan of forced homogeneity through relocation will not lead to the one percent growing an empathy gene. A better fit might be Finland’s policy of extremely limiting private schools. Every child gets the best education and opportunities the state can provide.
I’ll take my chances sending my kids to the school that best fits their needs whether funded by my tax dollars or from my post-tax earnings.
Once again, let federalism do its thing. If one state wants to allow the money to follow the student and allow the parent(s) to make the best choice for a child and one state wants to tell parents you will send your kid to a government school no exceptions, let the states do their thing.
Hoping to not confuse your use of the word “state”. None of us had the opportunity to pick the state of our birth. If I was unfortunate enough to have been born in a state (Ark for example) that gives deference to religious groups like Quiverfull, my ability to be a contributing member of society someday would be diminished. IMO. Letting those states run free from oversight risks greater schisms in our society than we currently have.
Part of Project 2025 is to eliminate the Department of Education. How will “let the states decide” help? ‘Talent is equally distributed; opportunity is not’ My greatest fear is that a child that holds the cure to cancer in his mind is being marginalized by his inability to receive the opportunity he deserves.
You mentioned Finland’s restriction on private schools and bringing that to America. I fundamentally disagree with that. We had public education in America prior to the establishment of the US Department of Education. Do you believe children should be stuck in failing schools or should their parents have a choice that unlocks their potential?
While I agree with your conclusion, I think the point is that when you lose the moneyed it compromises the system itself. One of the problems we have is that while good parents worry quite a bit about their own kids education little time is spent on the fact you also have a stake in the quality of every other kid’s education in some degree.
My stake in other children’s education ends with the payment of my property taxes and my vote in elections for my local school board or state superintendent of schools (or for those who appoint those positions). I can only focus as a parent on the quality education my kids receive. If we had the same mindset in technology that we have in education, we would still be using mainframe computers with punched cards and our phones would still be connected to a wire in the wall.
I want good teachers to be rewarded, bad teachers to be developed into good teachers or run out of the profession, and the bureaucracy to be reduced.
Whether you know/like/care being surrounded by a bunch of anti-social morons will eventually hit your quality of life. I’d rather be surrounded by people who are informed, hopeful, ambitious and enthusiastic. Your income goes up. Your taxes can (potentially) go down. Your property values increase. Quality of life depends upon the quality of the people you share your community with. Just as you believe your children’s education improves their lot in life, the same applies to every other child and one way or another you will be impacted, for good or for bad. Its just the way it is. We are not islands. We’re a temporary and tiny cog in a big wheel who will wriggle off one day only to be replaced and forgotten. We all play some small role in its functioning while we are here whether we acknowledge it or not.
Define “failing schools.” Are you located in an area that the public school has “failed” because the monied class has placed their support in a private school? If offered the choice of Riverwood(public) or Lovett(private) would you drive a little to pay a lot? I think a very robust public school system serves us all well.
If the comparison to a European country gives pause, might I point to our neighbors to the north? Canada ranks 7th overall in educated population to our 20th. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/educated-population
Derek was building Utopia. I was posturing that a high quality education for children in a shared classless environment might pay dividends down the road. Just babbling in the Playpen waiting for the season to start.
Failing schools … the ones where students are coming out and can barely read the diplomas they are receiving or can barely do math to function as an adult.
I don’t get this monied class has placed their support in a private school. The monied class still has to pay property tax regardless of whether the family uses the benefit. I have 1 child who graduated from a public charter high school and attended that school from 1st grade on. I have 2 children who attended the same school (up to 10th and 6th) before we moved. We decided we wanted to place our kids in a private school because 1) we weren’t sure we knew where we were going to live and 2) we didn’t want our high schooler to attend a high school with thousands of students. We chose a religious based private school with a proven track record of academic success.
Guess what? In Utopia, I should have been able to use a portion of my tax money to offset the cost associated with my kids not being in the public system. In reality, I’m ok with paying my property tax to the local county government to fund the school system.
The concept of every child graduating without the ability to read or do math sounds criminal to me. Surely the local officials and media are all over this and attempting to right this situation. While I completely sympathize with and applaud your desire to provide your children the best educational opportunities, I do think that it always comes down to your last line. You want a break on your taxes for your tuition. To me, that’s how your personal choice undermines public education. I haven’t had a kid in school for twenty years. I still consider my contribution to educating children very important. But, that’s just me.
I said in Utopia, I would take the tax break. The next sentence makes it clear I have no problem paying my property taxes into a system in my county for a service I don’t use.
It did. I stand corrected.
I googled that commission and not seeing a connection. I’m getting historical CIA abuses/expenses.
Not focused on empathy so much as ingraining a sense that there is a big world out there that is not nearly as depressing and hopeless as the places you started in.
I may have over-simplified my reference. Follow here to the wiki that links the premise expostulated in the Rockefeller Commission in 1972 to the followup done in 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect
There have been further followups in the US and Europe. If we are looking for a cost effective means of reducing crime: https://law.stanford.edu/publications/the-impact-of-legalized-abortion-on-crime-over-the-last-two-decades/
That is far too grim a connection for me. While I think people should be free (have the right) to make those choices, I’m not an advocate of its exercise or of the practice. It’s particularly problematic when viewed as potentially beneficial to society.
I’m not advocating a “Brave New World” scenario, just a worldview where each child birthed is wanted and cherished and that we as a society have a plan for making them successful without forced conscription.
Side issue is old white men telling women they’re not smart enough to make decisions about their own bodies.
Sounds a bit Comunistic to me, forcing people to do stuff in a “free” society isn’t so easy. Remove the safety nets, have the government stop subsidizing one parent households, actually punish criminal activity, and teach life skills (and Physical Education) in schools would go a long way in starting down the right path.
Also as parents we need to be parents and not “friends” to our children and prepare them for a life that doesn’t coddle to them.
JMHO.
Why rely on opinion when you have facts? Countries without social safety nets are all crime free and prosperous like Honduras. Countries with social safety nets are all poor, crime ridden hell holes, like Sweden. When your theory has been subjected to real world testing is it even a theory/opinion anymore? I’d much rather walk the streets of Tegucigalpa than Stockholm at 2:00 am.
The US currently has ~8.5 mil open jobs (US Bureau of Labor Statistics). Currently ~7 mil prime age working men (24 to 54) are not even looking for work (Common Sense Institute). Maybe they are not all qualified for the jobs that are open but it is hard to believe if the government and parents quit coddling these people they couldn’t find a way to support themselves.
If punishments for breaking the laws are made harsh enough people will stop breaking the law to a vast majority (some people are just sociopaths). The average time served for murder is 17.5 years and for rape it is 7.2 years (Bureau of Justice Statistics) do these really seem like deterrents? But Detroit, Memphis and Baltimore are pleasant locations for family vacations.
I don’t think all safety nets should be removed but there should be limits to what you can get and for how long for any able bodied and sound minded person. Government assistance should be just that and assistance not a way of life. At some point we have to get personal accountability back into society.
What first world nation has a higher incarceration rate than the USA? I agree that we have lots of job opportunities and said so at some point today. Who is going to fill them? Who wants to put the meth down long enough to work? Those folks aren’t getting a gubmit check. They are robbing and stealing and slinging. With my proposal (and legalizing/decriminalizing drugs btw) that ends way before you’re putting someone in a cage at a cost of 35k a year.
Here’s what I’ve learned from reading your rebuttals to anyone else’s ideas. Nothing is ever totally right except your opinions. Not every thought posted here requires rebuttal. It’s counter productive at best and easily escalated if the intent is honest open debate.
Honest question not meant as a personal attack. Why are your often cherry picked facts and frequently snarky opinions better than anyone else’s here?
Everyone’s snarky opinions and cherry picked facts are welcome. If you’d rather avoid contradiction or challenge, that option is also available by not hitting the button. I don’t get affirmation here. I don’t expect affirmation here. I don’t want affirmation here. Why should anyone think they are entitled to special dispensation? The exercise here is to try and challenge your own assumptions and opinions and hopefully learn something you didn’t know on Tuesday or hadn’t thought about before.
Ok Derek…repeat after me…everything the government touches turns to shit…everything the government touches turns to shit…everything the government touches turns to shit…for everyone except those who own the government. Case in point – Obamacare; where you can get shitty insurance for an expensive price and the healthcare industry can get rich off our poorest people! Two wolves and a sheep are undefeated…don’t look too closely under any of those social safety nets it’s pretty dark in there…
You miss your King. We got it. No need to repeat the same exact thing over and over week after week. I’m quite certain you can find a despot somewhere to go live under and avoid the inefficiencies of being governed by your fellow citizens.